The worst mod ever released is without any doubt and further discussion: Brutal Doom. Not that it's a random mix of feature overusage, blood and gameplay-flow-breaking fatalities but even worse, it's a pestilence that spreads totally uncontrolled. "BD Johnny Version", "Brutal Wolfenstein", "Brutal Doom SE", "Brutal Doom Voxelpatch", "Brutal Doom v19" and on and on and on. Sure, people don't have to play what they don't like so from a players' perspective everything is fine and it's just a matter of taste. What's definitely annoying from a modder's point of you are pms and e-mails like
- "Plz update ur mod, it doesnt work with BD!"
- "Can u add brutaldoom to ur wolfendoom mod?"
- "Shuld add fatalities like in BD, ur gore looks unrealistic!"
- "ISNT WORKING WITH BRUTALDOOM, FIX!"
(all of these are real quotes!)
To bring this finally to an end here as well, none of the mods here will ever be updated, redesigned or edited to make them fully compatible with Brutal Doom. If you want compatibility, ask Sgt. Mark IV instead - Knee-Deep in ZDoom, Ultimate Torment & Torture or The City of the Damned 2 have been there before anyway. Next to that: No future mods will ever be compatible to Brutal Doom out of the box ever - ever! I don't like Brutal Doom, I don't like McDonalds, I don't like porn with children - I don't support things that I don't like.
but to each it's own, apples and oranges and so on
Judging by how stuff was made in wads such as Kdizd (e.g.: not clashing DECORATE and DEHACKED features together, not replacing vital decoration actors, etc., unlike NeoDoom did), I bet it would be even easier. So, after I finish and release v20, I can give a try at making a patch for Kdizd. If it works as intended, I can make patches for your other wads as well.
So tell me Torm, are you interested in this kind of approach? Let's try to solve this problem together?
I agree wholeheartedly that the misconceptions surrounding Brutal Doom are harmful to everyone in the Doom community. At the end of the day, Brutal Doom is only a mod, and no one is obligated to fix up ther WADs so they're compatible. This should be obvious to anyone, but considering that Brutal Doom's popularity probably attracted swaths of new players to the Doom community, it's probably safe to assume some of them are derps.
On the bright side, perhaps its popularity will attract some good people to the modding community. I've been modding games since I was a kid, and Brutal Doom brought my attention back to Doom in the first place. I'm the guy behind a metamod called Brutal-Hellfest, and y'all may remember I posted a thread regarding assets found in a map pack by the same name, Hellfest, like friendly Vanilla marines with good AI, and the rainbow rifle. I moved on to this project I continue to develop today, applying the knowledge I gained through creating this mapset, focused on and determined to create a balanced, fun, new, and challenging, but still simple, form of gameplay.
I also agree that there can be serious gameplay-flow-breaking changes and nasty overuse of features, but I'd say that's more prevalent in meta-mods constructed off Brutal Doom. There are brutal meta-mods out there with an unnecessary amount of rifles, or shotguns, or whatever, and they may all do basically the same thing, for example, or perhaps there are way too many different sorts of monsters, or various balance issues that make some monsters practically impossible to beat or some weapons always preferrable over others. However, those sorts of things can also be found in Vanilla mods, potentially, but they often stand out in Brutal Doom because weapons and monsters there require some serious spritework and scriptwork to function similarly to the originally-implemented weapons and monsters. Not to mention that so many modders miss the point of modding a game to be balanced and fun, and instead focus on adding so much stuff or putting more emphasis on graphics over gameplay that they fail to create something fun. What's worse is that some gamers actually fail to realize that it's not fun, and go on perpetuating it because it's 'awesome' on the grounds that it just has so much stuff that the carnage levels are through the roof.
That's unpleasant to see as a modder who focuses on gameplay. Carnage isn't all blood and corpses, it's intensity and fun.
I see the original Brutal Doom, personally, as a project meant to modernize Doom without changing gameplay or the spirit of Doom. I think that, with the faster projectiles, better sounds and graphics, polished guns, and other stuff, adding stuff like extra blood, fatalities, reloading, and what have you fits into the overall feel of Brutal Doom. If that remains the goal for Brutal Doom, I don't have any complaints about Brutal Doom itself. However, Sarge seems to have taken an interest lately in extra features that aren't cosmetic or polishwork (like reducing lag or smoothing out weapons), like a flashlight, which would nullify dark areas in Doom and make the lightamp goggles totally useless. If you ask me, that sort of thing would be gameplay flow-breaking because the original Doom was already balanced in terms of lighting and such the way the map designers intended, and there's no need for it at all. That would contribute to being a mess, basically, as a needless feature. Brutal Doom's current changes that affect monsters are balanced in a way by the weapons being more powerful and in some cases having more functionality, and vice versa, all while not adding needless features that weren't in the original Doom that don't contribute to the overall feel of Brutal Doom. I personally would keep extra features to the meta-mods, and leave Brutal Doom as the above.
So, all of that being said, I am glad that:
- Brutal Doom is popular, because it's bringing some attention back to Doom.
- Even better, it's encouraged some modders to try their hand at modding. They'll improve over time, we all do.
- Brutal Doom is good, in my opinion, explained above.
- Brutal Doom really shows that this old game can still look stunning even today, which is inspiring to me personally.
And I am disappointed that:
- Brutal Doom could potentially suck attention away from other mods or WADs.
- - Though some people may be inclined to seek other custom content for whatever reason after enjoying Brutal Doom.
- Some people don't realize that Brutal Doom is at the end of the day a mod and no one is obligated to design around it.
- - This is no fault of Brutal Doom's, of course, but with people asking for compatability everywhere, it's annoying.
- Some modders who get into it because of Brutal Doom may lack focus on gameplay and instead focus on graphics.
- - Again, no fault of Brutal Doom's, but still terribly disappointing.
- Because of its graphics, Brutal Doom may attact some CoD appreciators.
- - Not all of 'em suck, but I find they in general tend to focus more on graphics and may not recognize gameplay.
I agree that bringing attention to the fact - like with this thread - that Brutal Doom is only a mod is one important step to ensuring that the above disappointments don't occur. I'd say that some would move on to other mods or WADs after trying Brutal Doom, but encouraging folks who get into Doom because of it to seek out other mods or WADs would be a good idea. Doom has SO MUCH STUFF out there to enjoy, and that should never be forgotten. The fact that gameplay is a better focus than graphics in mod design should be obvious, but for some it's not, so again, clearing up misconceptions and educating other modders on proper game design is important in progressing those modders from terrible to great. As for the modern gamers... again, pointing out why Doom works as a game is important, and the more they know, the better the situation will be. That's basically what it comes down to: Education!
I hope I've provided a fair analysis of the situation and contributed something worthwhile to the thread. Thank you for bringing the issue to light, and here's to fun and awesome days ahead.
...Also, as a side note, Torm, I found and tried Stronghold: On the Edge of Chaos the other day. Really impressive stuff, but the Dune Warriors had this glitch that would crash the game. I had to go into Slade 3 and fix it up. Figured I'd point that out. I don't remember what it was, though I think it had to do with some sort of jumpstate error.
Fact is, the Doom experience is already complete, and has been since 1993. Everything since has been a bonus. And yes, I do mean all twenty years worth of content that existed before BD.
Anyways, folks, just respect others' tastes, and don't expect people you don't know to spend time trying to "fix" their products to work with something they had nothing to do with--enjoy what you have, and appreciate the effort that went into it, and be respectful if you would like to see something changed or improved.
scalliano wrote: Fact is, the Doom experience is already complete, and has been since 1993. Everything since has been a bonus. And yes, I do mean all twenty years worth of content that existed before BD.
Correct. It also goes to ALL limit removing ports. We must remember that modding is just entertainment and not a work (unfortunately ).
Thanks for the offer but that's exactly the point. BD isn't my taste (which is fine, there are people whose taste isn't my work for example), so I am actually not interested in having compatibility but other people seem to have and make me responsible for breaking BrutalDoom with my mods - this is what the ridiculous post is all about.
Sergeant_Mark_IV wrote: So tell me Torm, are you interested in this kind of approach? Let's try to solve this problem together?
On a related and hopefully helpful note, I threw a small tutorial in the README file of my shareware Doom thingy. Here it is:
There's also a small tutorial for map design, loading up custom WADs, and at the most basic setting up gzdoom. I really need to update the zip, though...
Tormentor667 wrote: Thanks for the offer but that's exactly the point. BD isn't my taste (which is fine, there are people whose taste isn't my work for example), so I am actually not interested in having compatibility but other people seem to have and make me responsible for breaking BrutalDoom with my mods - this is what the ridiculous post is all about.
In no way I am asking you to endorse the patches, I'm just offering a simple solution for you to quickly deal with these people. You know that they will always keep coming and keep asking you for BD compatibility, and this would be a more efficient measure than trying to explain yourself why you don't like BD every single time. It would just take a single download link at the bottom of a thread, or a controlpasta of a link in a PM answer.
And also keep in mind, even if these players wouldn't be playing your wads as you intended them to be played, they will still be playing it in some way. They will still be able to appreciate the work you have put on the maps, and maybe someday they might want to play something different, and try the original versions of the wads.
I can only come at this from a mapper's point of view, but IMO when a projects is done, it's done. External addons aren't my responsibility (unless I'm interested in getting them working myself). Also, any potential fixes should be hosted alongside the mod itself, rather than the mapset (Mods like Samsara/Doomvengers/etc. have the download link, then a subpage of WAD-specific patches). That way, anyone interested in said mod will find everything they need in one place. Everybody's happy (as if ).
Just my 2p's worth.